Possible flooding when hot?? Any suggestions????

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 07:14 PM

Hey all,

I have a major dilemma and problem. :-( Since I got my bike (2005 R1, 8400 miles, no mods except for a gutted Y-pipe, new K&N air filter & stock NGK plugs, but that's only been for a couple of weeks and this problem has existed since I bought the bike about 6 weeks ago) I've had problems starting it when it's gotten hot. It's fine when it's cold, but when it's hot, it's very hard to start. I thought it was electrical, but now, come to find out, it's not (or at least I don't think it is). It's flooding when it's hot. It runs fine when it's cold or when you first start out riding it, but after it gets hot (sitting in traffic on a 110 degree day or going for a long ride or a lot of stop & go traffic where the fan has to come on several times in warm weather), if I stop and turn the bike off, it's really hard to start.

Plus, when it gets warm, it starts to run like crap from idle to about 3500 to 4000 rpm. The bike actually CHUGS along. I have to really get on it after letting the clutch out in 1st gear off of lights to get the bike to ride normal. Above 4k, it's fine, but below that, it chugs like I'm trying to leave the line in 5th gear and not 1st gear. Mind you the bike is also geared -1 tooth in the front! This ONLY happens when it's hot..when it's cold, the bike runs fine off the line in 1st gear...NO chugging.

Normally for me to start it after it gets hot, I turn the throttle about 1/3 to 1/2 to start it. After a few tries, it will finally kick and start. Today I decided not to touch the throttle at all (as it should be done). So, it was about 113*F out, I drove it a few miles in rush hour stop & go traffic, for the last couple of miles, to my destination. I turned off the bike, walked into the location for about 5 min, and when I walked out, I smelled gas. I walked around the bike to see if anything was leaking (my bike or any of the cars around me) and nothing.

I then went to start it (not touching the throttle) and it kicked for a half a second when I first hit the starter and then nothing; the bike just turned over. I tried this about 3 times and then the bike kicked again and then finally started and ran. It really smelled like gas once it started. Like it was clearing out the cylinders when it was turning over.

For some reason, the bike floods when hot. Anyone know why? What should I check/clean to fix this? This can't continue. Besides annoying, it's not a good thing for the engine.

Secondly...if any of you have seen some of my other posts, you'll now understand what I'm about to say. I wrote other posts worrying that my coolant was going into my oil and making the oil rise. Nope...found out it's GAS going into my oil and making the oil rise!!! I was just wondering about that and even though the bike has been sitting a good 2 hrs since I got home, I just unscrewed the oil cap and smelled it and oooooohhhh boy could you smell gas!!!! Ya, that CANNOT be good. I know it's thinning out the oil and thus not protecting the internal parts. I need to fix this ASAP.

So, every time I'm running this bike, it's getting warm and apparently dumping gas down into the cylinders when I stop..enough so that it's going down into my oil!!!! What do I need to check/clean/test/whatever to fix this? I don't really have the money or the time (my bike is my only ride right now) to take it to a Yamaha dealer to have them fix it. Is it most likely just a gummed up throttle body or two or is it possibly an electrical problem that's causing this?

I have run two bottles (before I came to this revelation that it's flooding) of Valvoline fuel injection cleaner through the tank (at different times), but to no avail.

When I bought the bike, the former owner said it was sitting for a while and he didn't ride it much (1,100 miles in like 1 year & 3 months) recently. Plus, the battery was dead when he went to show it to me for the test ride/purchase. So, it was sitting long enough for that to happen and had gas sitting in it. I'm guessing and praying that something is gummed up somewhere (that I can fix/clean) and it's letting gas dump into the cylinders when it gets hot and the engine is stopped.

Hell, for all I know, it's always dumping gas in and when it's cold, the engine can just handle it better so it doesn't run as bad.

Please, please, please, any help is appreciated. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and have the manuals from online, so I don't mind tearing into something to clean it if I have to, but I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting myself into first. If I have to tear apart the throttle bodies, then so be it, but don't I have to synch them or something after I put them back together and back on the bike? I've always heard of synching carbs with a vacuum gauge, but never have done anything with throttle bodies before. I just don't want to make things worse.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks for reading my long azz post, but I believe in trying to put all the info out there, so nothing gets missed. :-)

Thanks!
Mat

The KY · 07-29-2010, 07:35 PM

Might be vapor locking a little bit if it's been sitting in the sun.

Lost Sheep · 07-29-2010, 07:59 PM

no clue at the moment what it might be

Got2Go · 07-29-2010, 08:39 PM

I bet it is your fuel tank gas cap.
It has a spring loaded pressure release system.

Heat builds up pressure in the tank, and if the pressure is not released, it can flood the engine when you try to start it.
As if it had too much fuel pressure on the lines.

2 things:
1- Your pressure relief valve is malfunctioning - Take the cap off, and disassemble it to make sure its clean.

2- If the pressure relief valve is clean, then there is a mod you can do to make it open at lower pressures. typically it consists of enlarging the holes within the valve mechanism.

As to the issue with power...if the cap issue above does not solve it, then i would look into the fuel map (if you have a power commander or similar). It might be off in that range, affecting the fuel mixture to the point where it can barely stay on.

The bike does have a temperature sensor that adjusts mixture based on temperature, that could be defective as well, and sending the wrong reading to the ECU, thus messing up the mixture.

But, try the gas cap route first.

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 08:42 PM

KY,

I was almost thinking of that, but even if I don't let it sit in the sun, this is happening. It's whenever the bike is warmed up and gets hot. It "seems" worse when it gets hotter (say 110+ outside & I sit in stop & go traffic or go for a long ride with a lot of lights).

I guess I could check the vent hoses to see if they are clogged somehow. A couple of weeks ago I checked all the tubes under the tank and didn't see anything kinked or anything.

So, I don't know why it's happening. Like I said, the bike was sitting for a while (probably months, from what I got from the previous owner) before I got it. I'm guessing something gummed up and is sticking open when it gets hot? I don't know.

This weekend the only thing I can think of right now is to pull the tank, pull the airbox, check all the air/emission/fuel hoses to make sure nothing is kinked or clogged or obstructed and then pull the TB's off the bike and clean them.

After that I'll reinstall them and then resynch them per the manual and see if that helps.

I don't know what else to do at this point. I don't have the money to have a dealer or shop look at it and if I call any shop, they'll just tell me to bring it in instead of giving me ideas of what to check or look for.

Got2Go · 07-29-2010, 08:45 PM

Look above...

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Got2Go

I bet it is your fuel tank gas cap.
It has a spring loaded pressure release system.

Heat builds up pressure in the tank, and if the pressure is not released, it can flood the engine when you try to start it.
As if it had too much fuel pressure on the lines.

2 things:
1- Your pressure relief valve is malfunctioning - Take the cap off, and disassemble it to make sure its clean.

2- If the pressure relief valve is clean, then there is a mod you can do to make it open at lower pressures. typically it consists of enlarging the holes within the valve mechanism.

As to the issue with power...if the cap issue above does not solve it, then i would look into the fuel map (if you have a power commander or similar). It might be off in that range, affecting the fuel mixture to the point where it can barely stay on.

The bike does have a temperature sensor that adjusts mixture based on temperature, that could be defective as well, and sending the wrong reading to the ECU, thus messing up the mixture.

But, try the gas cap route first.

Got2Go - Thank you for the info and detailed answer. I appreciate it. I'm wondering if there is any way to test it to see if it's faulty or not. Hmmmm...too bad I can't borrow someone's gas cap (that they know works fine) to see if it works and if it cleans everything up, then I'll know and can go buy a new one. Either that or I guess I could technically run the bike until it starts causing the flooding/poor engine performance problem and then hurry up and take the entire cap assy off and then go for another ride (as long as I have low fuel, say on reserve, so it's way low in the tank) and go for a small ride...if it doesn't feel like it's bogging in first gear any longer, then that would be it for sure.

I do know, however, that the vent line does go through the tank from the top of the gas cap to the bottom of the tank and then a rubber tube attaches to the bottom of the tank and runs down through the engine/frame and out towards the kickstand.

But I appreciate the info and will take the cap off (maybe even tonight) and disassemble it and clean it up. Any certain solvent/cleaning agent you suggest to clean it with? I don't want to use something that will ruin any seals/rubber gaskets.

I don't have a PCIIIUSB on the bike. If it ever had one, I don't know, but it doesn't have one now. The only thing the bike has that's changed (engine wise) is new plugs, a new K&N air filter and new oil/oil filter that I put in just after I got it. That's it for "engine mods" at this point. Well, I take that back, I do have a SpeedoHealer & a GI Pro (Gear Indicator) hooked up, but that has nothing to do with the air/fuel system.

By "temperature sensor" do you mean the one that is installed into the airbox to read the incoming air temp? I also have a readout on my dash that I can read what the ambient air temp is around the bike/airbox for the incoming air. I'm guessing this is possibly read off the same sensor that you're talking about?

I can always try and find what the parameters are in the manual and test it to see if it's within tolerances. I just hope it's not something stupid where it only goes bad when it's hot.

Again, thanks for your insight. It at least gives me something else to look at besides just the TB's that I'm going to take off, clean, replace and resynch.

Mat

The KY · 07-29-2010, 09:17 PM

Another possible would be bad piston rings. That would let fuel leak into the crankcase. Maybe have a compression test done on it?

gsxrnv · 07-29-2010, 09:24 PM

Have you had the tps checked? There was a recall on the primary tps for the 04-05 R1.

It's free from yamaha. Call them up and give them your vin. They can tell you if you need it done. All the symptoms you list sound like the tps.

I you want to do it yourself, buy the tps for a 2006 R1.

Good Luck

Got2Go · 07-29-2010, 09:25 PM

If it's heat related, I almost guarantee it's pressure buildup on the tank from sun/air/engine heating the tank.

The hose that drains by the kickstand is just a spill drain for fuel that spills in the area outside of the fill hole.
So that is not going to affect the pressure inside the tank.

If you wantvto test this, just crack the gas cap open a little very time you park...when you come back the bike should start right up withoutvthis issue.

All piston rings can leak gas into the oil.
And this is normal to an extent. All engines will have traces of gas in the oil.

In your case it is flooding, si there is excess gas sitting in the combustion chamber, and some of it will make it to the oil.

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 09:28 PM

I haven't had a compression test done as of yet. Maybe I can rent a compression test from Autozone/Kragen and do the test on the cylinders.

I'm praying that's not the case, especially after only 8,400 miles. Not saying it's not possible, but I'm going to freak if the rings are gone already.

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 09:40 PM

GSXRNV - The recall was done on my TPS in July of 08 as per the dealer when I called and gave them my VIN. That was one of the first things I checked. But thank you for pointing that out. :-)

Got2Go - It's definitely heat related. If I start/ride the bike early in the morning, it's not as bad, but when it gets hotter out, it gets worse and the chugging also gets worse in 1st gear as it gets hotter outside. Especially when it was 113*F+ outside last week. That's when it was really bad. So, it does seem to increase with heat because the bike runs fine and starts fine when I first start it in the morning or leaving for work.

So, I'm going to take the cap off tonight or tomorrow before work and try and clean it. Not quite sure how to clean it or how to test it, but I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll call a couple of dealers and ask them if they know how to test it to see if it's bad or not, but what your saying makes perfect sense of why it would flood it and I have more trouble in the higher heat and I don't remember my 02 R1 ever giving a "rush of air" when I opened the gas cap when it was hot.

I know that the R1 locks the key into the gas cap when it's open, but I've never tried to turn the key back and remove it when it's been open. Maybe I can do that and just lightly set it back on the top of the tank so that it's cracked and see how that works. Never thought of testing it that way verses taking it completely off.

R1_Demon · 07-29-2010, 09:46 PM

I'll go for a ride tomorrow and try and get the bike up to it's normal warm operating temps where it starts getting sluggish off the line and then I'll park it and open the gas cap immediately. Then I'll let it sit for a few minutes and then try and start it and see how it goes. If it starts right away without any issues (or at least I see a big improvement), then I'll know you are correct and I'll go take it for a test ride with the gas cap cracked a bit to keep the air going in and see if it improves the 1st gear throttle/sluggish problems. if it does, then it looks like I'll buy a new gas cap assy from the dealer.

Got2Go - Thanks a bunch for your help. I hope it's the right answer and it sounds perfectly logical to me and I never even knew they had a spring loaded system for a pressure regulator on the cap. If this works, I definitely owe you a beer at the next meeting!!

R1_Demon · 08-02-2010, 10:18 AM

Ok...I took the gas cap apart the other day and it seemed to be fine. I didn't see anything wrong or bad. However, there is a check ball in there and a little filter type thing (I don't even know how to explain it and didn't take pics when I had it apart) in there though. It's possible those are bad. I have no clue.

However, I put it all back together and remounted the cap. I then looked and realized there is a little rubber grommet that goes from the tank to the gas cap (maybe a quarter of an inch long or so). So, I figured, for now, I removed that little rubber grommet, so that the gas tank can vent without going through the gas cap itself. I didn't get a chance to ride it yet to test this theory, but to me, that should help prevent any issues. But then again, I'm not positive either because the venting might have to go thru the gas cap and then down into the grommet and back thru the gas tank itself, so taking this off might not have resulted in any help. I don't know yet. I can always put it back if it didn't help things.

So, I'll take it for a ride today and see if that helped. Again, I took it apart to clean it and really didn't see anything that needed cleaning or anything. So, I guess if the gas cap is bad, it's bad. I did find a guy on Craigslist that said he had one off an 02/03 for like $25, so maybe I'll pick it up from him/her and see what gives.

R1_Demon · 08-04-2010, 02:57 AM

Ok...I thought I'd give an update, in case anyone cares or if this happens to you.

After going through some steps to trace this problem down and eliminate the multitude of possibilities, I found out that the valve under the tank and/or the carbon canister on the bike was plugged/bad. The bike is a CA model, so it has that crap on it.

It wasn't allowing the gas tank to properly vent.

Ya, not good! So, I ended up rerouting the tubing like a 49 state model bike, so that it would vent properly and viola! the issue is now gone! I also replaced the orange grommet between the upper gas tank and the bottom of the gas cap to make sure everything is as it should be before I tested it out.

Took it for a long ride today and when I stopped, it started right up again, while hot, with no issues of flooding or it being hard to start. I then let it sit outside in the sun for 2 hrs (after the ride) and then went out and it started right up.

Plus, no bogging or chugging in first gear any more. It acts "normal" even when hot.

Also, the bike is actually running a few (almost 10*F or so) degrees cooler as well! Definitely a great benefit there!

Anyway, so I just wanted to update everyone on what happened and I thank everyone for their help. I greatly appreciate it!

Mat

Got2Go · 08-04-2010, 09:59 AM

Good deal!

How do you know it was clogged?

R1_Demon · 08-05-2010, 08:55 AM

First I couldn't get any air through it, in or out.

To me that is a problem because how can it vent properly if I can't get any air through it? LOL

Then called the dealer and explained what I was looking at/for and asked them if air should go through it and they said it should be a one way valve and air should be able to go into the canister, but not back out of it (to help emissions, obviously), so he said either the canister is plugged and/or the one-way valve is bad.

Well, I'm not paying to replace those parts that I'm not using nor do I legally need here in NV anyway, so off it went. Now it's a 49 state bike. That's the only difference (and the AIS system, which is gone as well) between the CA bikes and the 49 state bikes for the R1's.

So, not only did it fix the problem, it technically made the bike a few pounds lighter (3.5 pounds for the canister setup & 1.5 pounds for the AIS system) and the bike actually runs a few degrees cooler, which is always a plus. Plus, without the AIS, it's much better/easier (more correct, I should say) to tune to a PCIIIUSB when I get it and install it, not to mention if I ever have Dynojet do a custom tune on it.

So, all in all, a good thing.

buellrider · 08-06-2010, 11:24 AM

Have any problems with your neighbors???

Lee County woman finds gas tank filled with condoms

A woman’s mechanic found why her car was running sluggishly – someone put condoms in the gas tank.

Erin Green of the 11000 block of Corinne Lee Court, Fort Myers, on Tuesday told Lee County Sheriff’s Office deputies she tried to start the car on July 30 and “the car was extremely sluggish and ran horribly.” She took it to a mechanic who found the condoms, according to an incident report.

Green told deputies she’s had problems with some neighbors before and that they may have done the damage.

Lee County woman finds gas tank filled with condoms Naples Daily News Mobile

R1_Demon · 08-06-2010, 09:31 PM

No problems with nabors, but damn that's funny.

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07-29-2010, 09:24 PM	#9
gsxrnv Newbie Joined: Apr 2008 From: SW LV Posts: 8 I Ride: 2001 TLS, 2004 R1, 1987 GSXR	Have you had the tps checked? There was a recall on the primary tps for the 04-05 R1. It's free from yamaha. Call them up and give them your vin. They can tell you if you need it done. All the symptoms you list sound like the tps. I you want to do it yourself, buy the tps for a 2006 R1. Good Luck